- March 14, 2019
- Posted by: august19
- Category: Podcast
Not everything is rosy in life. That includes the note business. As investors, we may have been dealt with a couple of blows here and there with our deals, assets, or properties. No matter what the situation is, we all have suffered fallbacks. Chris and Gail bare their pain points by sharing some of their failures in the note business. They talk about problem properties and what to do about them, looking into selling them and how to recover afterwards. Gathering from other’s experiences, they share some stories that show how even though note investing is a great and fun business to be in, we have to put on the right glasses to see the challenges and work it entails.
Listen to the podcast here:
Note Business Failures
I was in my car. I went out for an hour of therapeutic shoe shopping. As I was checking out a borrower of yours and mine that we have not been able to connect with, she called me out of the blue to talk about her loan. I think it’s going to be a challenging case because she’s pretty low-income, but one of the things that was shared is that she grew up in the house that we’re talking about. It’s been a very strange path of ownership for this house. This house belongs to her family at one point on a note and mortgage and then it somewhere along the line got sold and became a contract for deed. I’m not even sure how that all happened but I was very impressed. It’s one of those situations when someone tells you that they grew up in a house that it makes me feel like, “We’re going to figure it out. Whatever it takes to keep her in that house, we’re going to try and do it.”
What was the outcome? We’re going to try and keep her in the house. She sounded she wants to stay. She’s been there long.
She already said she doesn’t have upfront money. She’s got a serious default situation. I don’t know why it was allowed to go on this long but apparently, she made a payment a few months ago. Up until then, she had not made a payment in five years. She hasn’t made a payment since. Their focus is on catching up the three months she’s missed since she made the payment. She’s not even able to think about the five years before that. The funny part was she said to me off-handedly, “We were not supposed to have to pay this anymore because we had a bankruptcy,” but that’s beside the point. I said, “What do you mean?” She said, “It was one of those bankruptcies where they’re supposed to cancel all your debts.” I said, “A Chapter 7 you mean?” She goes, “Yeah, that’s it.” I said, “That’s only unsecured debts like your credit cards. It does not apply to your house. I’m sorry.”
We should check that, Gail, because if the BK7 was after the land contract, then it would best be in our interest to get her on a new land contract. She thinks that she doesn’t have to pay and that land contract may be voided but if she wants to stay in the property, she’s going to have to get on a new land contract. For me, I have been trying to sell a property that is called lower valued asset. Typically, I will use a realtor but in this one, I’m not going to use a realtor because the inside was in decent condition. I’ll try and sell it myself, put it on Facebook and BiggerPockets and all these other sites and so forth. I should have gotten a realtor. I’ve got someone actually looking at it, but it’s one of those lessons learned where you’re like, “I can do this,” and try and take on something that I stick to my guns usually on what I do and what I outsource.
Then on this one I’m like, “I can handle this one.” The reality of it is I probably should have outsourced it so I could get it off my books. That is a lesson learned that I have. It’s been a little more frustrating because it’s the end of the month and I’ve actually had a lot of people inquire about it. One of the things that drive me nuts on Facebook is a lot of times when you reply to certain ads, for some reason you can’t open up the ad again. People keep asking me, “Where is this? What are the payments in this?” I’m like, “It’s in the ad.” They’re like, “I can’t see the ad anymore.” Then I tried it and I’m like, “Yeah, they’re right.”
I always tell people to get a look at the ad too and no one ever said that to me.
It could be I posted it wrong. That’s a little frustrating in my sense and it’s what’s on the top of my mind. I was writing on my list to-do, is basically the person’s looking there. Literally, part of my list is get my realtor that I have sold my assets and put that one on their list. That ties into our main topic, which is some of the pain points that we have going or some of our failures in the note business.
Problem properties and what to do about them. Sell them and then how to recover afterwards. That’s my thought.
We had a very lengthy and great topic about this with some other note investors who are going through the same thing. It brought them on to talk about it and then we took feedback from people to give ideas and brainstorming.
We’ve had some people on open mic who were very brave and very candid about sharing all the things that have gone wrong in painful detail. It made me think that in this business, as in many people do not want to talk about their failures. They feel it hurts their brand. It’s hard to talk about because some of us don’t allow ourselves to fail or get very upset. It creates so much emotional turmoil to think about things that aren’t going well, to talk about them or to share it. I felt it was positive.
In fact, we talked for an hour and shut off our recording thinking, “That was good.” People wanted to keep talking. There was lot of synergy and good as people were making suggestions, talking about all kinds of different things. Let me give an example of one of the things we’re talking about. There’s a gentleman who is relatively new in note investing but has been going gangbusters. He has a house. I believe it’s three-beds and two-baths. It’s a very nice suburban house in Indiana. When he got inside, he was completely flabbergasted to find out that it was a hoarder’s house. Literally, almost the entire house was chest-high with stuff. Was that what he said?
It was chest-high in stuff and I think he said it was four 40-yard dumpsters that emptied it out.
Plus a twenty-yard. It was a lot. He got at one point a $17,000 estimate on what it would take to clean it out. Luckily, he did not take that and he found a way to do it for a tenth of that. The scale of this would be hard to overstate how bad it was. His original thought I think was that he was going to flip that house. Now, he’s wondering if maybe it makes more sense to either turn it into a turnkey rental and sell it to an investor or own it as a rental because it’s something he bought with his own funds. He can decide whatever.
There were a lot of good ideas that came out. I strongly recommend people go back to that episode and read some of these failures. One thing I’ll mention with failures, it doesn’t have to technically be a monetary failure. There are failures that happen all the time where you’re doing due diligence or something happens or a deal falls through and you feel you could have done something or did something differently or better. It didn’t come to fruition or you made a mistake. Those are failures as well that aren’t catastrophic in regards to a major financial failure. Every day as a note investor, we all suffer failures.
I will share one of mine. I want to say the two gentlemen and the ones that I’m struggling with right now, they’re all in cold weather areas. They have had a particularly brutal winter in these places. When we talk about things like having a hard time selling a place, you’re struggling a little bit on your property, which is in Michigan. I have two for sale in Michigan. Then I have these others in Indiana that have been major problems. I’m hoping the spring thaw will both elevate our moods, make us feel like we want to continue living, give us reason to go on but also will help things to start moving a little bit. I know you’re eager to get this Michigan property off your books and out of your head. If you have to wait a couple months, you might find that between the combination of potential buyers, having their tax refunds in hand and the weather being more supportive of people going outside to look at a house, you might find that things improve a lot over the next couple of months.
Hopefully, that’s the case.In today's world, it's amazing that you can do things from anywhere. Click To Tweet
I want to share two problem houses of mine. These are related but they point up a danger. When you’ve been zooming along for a while and nothing has gone wrong that you forget how vulnerable we all are to problems and being cons. For example, you and I are doing stuff with houses all over the country. It’s not physically possible to visit all of them and to vet all the people we hire to work on them. I have a situation in Indiana where I hired a guy off of Craigslist who I spent a lot of time talking to on the phone. I asked for references and received them. The references were great. I hired him to do basic painting, carpeting and fixing, replacing toilets and doing maybe a countertop in a kitchen. Then there were also some physical, like there was a leak in the roof that had caused damage in the ceiling, so there was dry wall. There were a number of things. It all added up to a substantial bill in my mind given the value of the house. It’s a big house, 1,700 square feet. Even doing basic things was pricey.
We had a total budget of $8,500, which I knew was not going to make the house gorgeous but I was shooting for rent-ready look, which is clean, freshly painted, everything works, that level. Within a relatively short period of time, he had introduced me to his partner who he said was going to be the guy doing the work so everything would be cool. Within a very short order, my original guy receded into the background and now I’m just talking to the partner, where he’s doing the work and things are going along. The original guy who handed me off to this guy was still checking in and was making sure everything was going okay, so that I would feel comfortable and everything. They finished the job. I had a set of pictures.
I now don’t know what house these are pictures of because after having some showings and getting these horrified reactions from potential buyers about how the house looked. They had done things like all the junk that was in the backyard that they were supposed to put it in trucks and take it away, they literally moved it to the side of the house in order to take pictures of the backyard. That made it look like everything was beautiful. Then they moved it again into the backyard so they could take the other pictures. Honestly, at that point you would think it would have been less work for them to put it on a truck and take it somewhere. Rather than cheating me, they could have just done the job. It would have been the same amount of work.
I’ve had people who have done that, trashing out inside the house to show you everything’s clean, then all of a sudden they took everything and either threw it down into the basement or put everything in one room and didn’t take pictures of that one room. You’d never been in the house or done a video tour so you’re not even sure if it’s okay. They send some before and after and so forth. They’ll send you a picture but all of a sudden, the stuff are in the corner which ends up being another dumpster. What I found a lot of times is they’ll tell you, “I need a dumpster.” I ordered a dumpster and one comes, they fill it and then if it’s filled and there’s no more space, basically then they’re like, “It’s full so we’ll throw this stuff somewhere else and tell the guy we’re done.” Then you’ve got somebody else come and then you’ve got to do it all over again.
My first impression when I found out that the work wasn’t done was that the partner had pulled a fast one on both his friends who brought him the job and me. The friend was expressing all sorts of horror and outrage on my behalf. I remembered that the first guy did go and inspect the work while the partner was doing it and reported to me that everything was looking great. Now, I’m thinking there are two possibilities. Either they were always in cahoots with each other and the first guy was building my confidence by being my boots on the ground with this guy or the first guy is mentally ill and cannot see how wrong this whole job is. He did actually after the fact, say to me, “This looks terrible. I’m so sorry. I’ll fix it myself.” He has supposedly been fixing it himself for two months. In fact, he hasn’t even gone over there and it’s always been the weather. I understand Indiana has had a terrible winter, but there’s not that much weather. There has been a break in the weather somewhere.
I’m lucky that I have somebody in Indiana that I truly do trust. He’s been to this house now. We’re in a real bond because we have spent all told about $22,000 in terms of buying this house, fixing it, the legal to get the people out and stuff. When it looks decent, we can probably sell it on a land contract for $50,000. We’re not in terrible shape but the investor is out of money. I’m going to have to put up the money to get it corrected at this point. Fortunately, my guy who was my property manager in Indiana is a contractor also. He has been there. He’s working up a plan. He might even be interested in buying it as his first rental, in which case, I would not be paying him for his labor as part of his down payment. I would be paying him for the materials. I think we’re going to be fine bottom line. I have had some long dark nights of the soul about this whole thing. I have the hardest time accepting that we cannot control everything that happens, particularly at a great distance from where we are and that there’s an inevitability about this. It was incredibly great for me to have two investors that I respect, come on and tell similar horror stories or actually worse stories. It was a boost for me.
Being in the contracting world on a daily basis and literally being in an office or being on a site that was 100 yards away from the project. When I was a project manager, literally being in a trailer right outside the door, it is amazing that it doesn’t matter whether you’re 100 feet away or 100 miles away, I was going to be watching because it can turn into horror stories very quickly. I think everybody who’s in this business long enough will go through one of these. It’s the reality of it. You’re basically playing the odds and hoping that we can find decent contractors. You can pay a preservation company to do the work and manage it, but typically from what I’ve seen with those companies, the sticker shock on the pricing has been jaw-dropping.
I think the only solution is to concentrate all you are buying in one area. We’re both on properties in one city in Michigan, the properties in Indiana. They’re not super close together but it makes me want to stay where I have people that I know do a good job. We were talking about the fix-it guy in Michigan. Once you improve a property, it’s hard to find borrowers who are a good bet in that city. There are always things that are challenges about these properties.
One thing that I started doing is I’ve reached out to other people who are investors that I see that lead a lot of these larger Facebook groups. Typically, the people who manage or operate them typically are very driven individuals and do a lot of investing in those areas. I started reaching out to some of them and setting up calls and talking with them. Getting a rundown for some of the areas but also who the players are, who I should be talking to and who I should stay away from in regards to contractors. I have a property in Northwest Indiana, a contract for deed that is an interesting scenario that a section of the roof needs to be fixed. The borrower does not have the money to fix it. I’m going to get that roof fixed because the inside of the property is actually in very good condition.
It’s $800 to fix it. What I don’t want to happen is let it sit there, have them put a tarp up there and then all of a sudden have water leaks, mold, and everything get in the house. I want to protect my assets. I was on the phone with this investor saying, “Who should I use for roofer? It’s a small job and stuff.” He was like, “Be careful with this guy. He posts a lot on Facebook but there are a lot of complaints about him. Here are two or three guys you might want to reach out to.” It’s good from that standpoint also to try and get some information. I didn’t talk to one investor. I talked to two or three that were unaffiliated to make sure it’s not like your Indiana case where it’s buddy-buddy, in that sense. The same names came up in all three cases twice or two of the names.
Is that people to avoid or people to hire?
People to hire.
You think about, “I’m being so clever asking for references,” but their references can be their family members or friends. It’s ridiculous. I think all the time about what would be the way to figure out who is legit and who isn’t? I think your plan is probably the best one. To be clear, you will go on to the Michigan investors or North Michigan investors and talk to the people who are on those groups?
Yes. It’s these groups that I will go on. This one is the Invest NWI investor group, Invest Northwest Indiana Investor Group. I’ve got some properties up in that area. Some people may stay away from that area, but this Facebook group has got 1,300 members in it. I think Jim is the guy who runs it. There are so much people on there talking the goods and bads. One person put a referral of, “Stay away from this guy.” Then five people commented, “Yes, definitely stay away. He’s trouble,” or things like that. It’s been helpful. If I needed something quickly, “Can somebody do an occupancy check on a property for me?” Someone say, “I live two blocks from there. No problem.” Using that resource and it’s so amazing nowadays the technology we have that we hadn’t have several years ago to reach out. Think about note investing several years ago when you needed to find somebody to do a property check for you. It would be okay, you’re going to send somebody by, they’re going to take photos with their Polaroid and you’ll stick them in the mail because you can’t download them or it will take four hours if you even had a computer to download them on AOL, on the 512,000 downloads.
In this world, it’s amazing that you can do things from anywhere, which is very beneficial. Is there anything else, any other struggles that you have? I’ve got a few of my own of course that I have in regards to trying to do some things with some assets that are similar in instances of whether it’s trying to sell some assets or that we’ve taken back and get them to the finish line. It seems like getting things to the finish line sometimes takes much longer than it has to. It’s been challenging. For the audience, we’re telling you this because it’s normal that this is going to happen. This business isn’t all rosy and it’s not just, “Sit back and collect the mailbox money.” Even on performing notes, some performing notes can be performing but they still can take on a roller coaster ride. We want people to have the right glasses on when they look into note investing. It’s a great, fun business to be in but it’s also challenging and it is a lot of work.
I’ve got a few problem properties. I have another one in Indiana that is connected to these same two joker contractors. One of them was supposed to be fixing a house that I own in my IRA. They painted a couple of walls and took pictures of them for me but left the bathroom completely unfinished, left the kitchen completely unfinished. I had realtors go in to find out. Ultimately, after getting stories over and over again, you eventually have to send in an independent set of eyes to tell you what’s going on. The work was not done. He pretended to be outraged about that, “My guys didn’t finish it.” Supposedly for several months, he’s getting over there to fix that too.It is a weird prejudice how we tend to think of contractors as people who have to be watched all the time. Click To Tweet
Some people are such good actors that you feel this is where I come up with the mentally ill theory. The guy sounds he’s shocked and very upset. I had a couple of contractors when I was helping a friend flip a house locally. Fixed up his own house enough to sell it. There are a lot of mentally unstable people out there who are not in touch with reality. It’s very hard. You find yourself in this place where you’re not sure which end is up. They are so committed to their version of things and you can see with your own eyes that it isn’t true, “Are we in the twilight zone here? I don’t get what’s happening here.”
It reminds me, sometimes when I find people take pictures of properties, I’ll find them on Craigslist and they’ll say, “Here you go,” and send me pictures and the picture that comes through is completely blurred. You can tell that it wasn’t a clear picture and I have already gone online and looked at Google or Bing and the county to see what pictures might be on there or if there are pictures from prior assets. I know this happened to us in one of the assets in Ohio. I don’t know how you got him to pay you back but he did.
The guy cheated us by saying he had taken pictures of the house. You very cleverly recognize the pictures as from being Trulia and Zillow. We were doing all these properties at once, so I was inattentive and I paid him foolishly on Venmo. When I challenged him, he paid the money back. I will never stop scratching my head in this business. It is so entertaining.
I’ve had them before. People were like, “Send me your address.” I was like, “Here’s the address,” and they go, “I’ll have it done in an hour.” Forty minutes later, a guy sends me pictures and one of them was in Minnesota and he sent me a picture in the summertime. I’m like, “It’s amazing that there are trees and leaves.” The picture was from Zillow.” I replied back to the guy, “Nice try,” and put the link for Zillow on them. I was like, “I didn’t know you could take pictures for Zillow and put them up that quicker.” I never heard back from him. It’s another way of being scammed. A lot of our frustrations is what it boils down to it is sometimes being scammed.
I have a property in Georgia that is a contract for deed. We started doing a forfeiture. This will be a great shock to anyone who thinks of Georgia correctly as a fast foreclosure state. Apparently, forfeitures are slower but even at that, this is ridiculous. It’s partially because once again, something we can’t control but we deal with all the time. The attorney was supposed to have the sheriff go in October, which was already a long time from July. I was checking in with him regularly. He was assuring me, “The sheriff hasn’t been able to serve the papers yet. We don’t know where the borrower is. She doesn’t live there. We have to find her. It’s a big mess.” Come December, full two months after I started checking in with him weekly about this, he confesses to me, “When I said back in October that we had sent the order to the sheriff to have him go out there and serve the papers, we didn’t actually do that. We dropped the ball.” I was so upset. I made him give me half his fee back as a punishment.
It’s interesting you mentioned that because if I look at which one of my vendors I have to manage the most, I would say it’s been my attorneys. I would tell a lot of people to put attorneys on pedestals. My attorneys, I love them, they’re great but you still need to manage them. I have instances where basically I demand a letter. I have a notice and it pops up on my screen. The demand letter expires. They didn’t pay, “Let’s get the title report.” I’ll reach back two weeks later, “What’s the status of the title report? Did you get it?” I realized I can tell by the response that they never even ordered it.
There were two weeks lost right there or certain times on filing the documents after forfeiture to get the forfeiture done. I’ve got some assets in a state that I bought them the same exact day because I split a pool with somebody. That person foreclosed on their two assets several months ago. I still have not foreclosed on mine. I literally was once a month emailing the attorney, “Status.” Every time I kept getting the same thing, “It’s this, it’s that.” Excuse after excuse and it’s unfortunate but I would tell people that attorneys are great. They protect you and they’re awesome but they still need to be managed.” I want to throw that out there for people. Some people think, “My attorney is taking care of it.” You still need to make sure of it.
It is a weird prejudice that we tend to think of contractors as people who have to be watched all the time. These more highly educated professionals, the attorneys can be trusted to manage their time correctly and to prioritize us as we see fit. In some ways, attorneys, particularly the ones from big firms that have tremendous pressure on them to be doing so many billable hours and juggling so many clients to keep the place profitable, it’s a real problem. You and I have discussed, we had an attorney that we love merged with a big firm and it has been so sad for us. We loved working with her and it’s her firm that has dropped the ball on this one. It’s frustrating. This is such a fluid world. You were actually sharing with me some pricing from an attorney that we adored because he was good at what he did. His prices were fair and he has gotten so popular that he’s seemingly arbitrarily raised his prices.
His prices went up about 50%, which I don’t mind increasing the pricing but the quality of service has dropped 50%. His firm was very good and well-priced, now their pricing is still reasonable but the quality has dropped. I’m not the only one that’s mentioned this. I know you and other investors I’ve talked to have thought the same thing and it’s a challenge. A struggle that we all have is sometimes managing these vendors, especially the ones you would think are ones that should be able to be more self-sufficient.
On this property in Georgia, as this forfeiture has dragged on and on, the house is abandoned at this point. It was occupied when we first got it back in the spring of 2018. I think with tenants, not with the borrower herself. I had code enforcement on me because the people who moved out literally threw their stuff all over the yard and made a gigantic mess. Clothing, all kinds of belongings and it was completely insane. At some point, a tree fell on the shed that is attached to the house and there’s all sorts of tree debris and branches. I guess they’ve had some pretty serious windstorms down there. It’s like Kansas when Dorothy got picked up and taken to Oz. The whole place looks like it’s been in a blender. I feel horrible about this too because we should’ve had possession of this probably a few months ago. It should be up for sale and instead we’re struggling. For me, one of the hardest things about this business is managing the frustration that I feel sometimes about these situations that are so hard to control.
That’s why I’m trying to get you, Gail, to shift away from the tedious tasks that you could outsource to focus more on managing the vendors.
I’m on board. I’m trying to work my way over in that direction.
We’ve covered a lot of great topics. Talking about some of the struggles we have within this business and using some case studies from that, which we’ll continue to update people along in the future. I think it’s time that we roll into our Notes and Bolts section of something that you have at the tip of your tongue that you think could be very helpful for people out there. As we were talking about attorneys and making sure you manage them along with the other consultants. One thing I’ll mention too is if you have an attorney, do a forbearance or a trial payment plan or whatever it may be. Make sure that you read through it thoroughly. The reason I mentioned that is at one point in time I need a forbearance plan. I sent the attorney, “I need a forbearance plan. The plan is they’re going to pay $500 a month for next twelve months and then we’re going to roll the balance into a loan mod.”
When the forbearance plan came through, it was $500 a month but what it said is all past due accrued interest and late fees would be waived. I saw them, “That’s not what I agreed to.” Sometimes I’m so busy, sometimes I might take it and forward it to the servicer and make sure the address and money was right. One of the little paragraphs that mentioned was, “I am glad I took the extra ten minutes to read this document.” Make sure you always read your documents. Even if you spell it out for them, make sure to do another review because I would have been giving up about $8,000 to this individual. Some of it was actually costs that I was out of pocket on. It’s very important to make sure you take the time. I know you want to try and get these documents out to the person, get them signed and say, “I got them on the forbearance plan.”
Plus, it’s painful to read some of these things. Attorneys act like Charles Dickens, they get paid by the word and there’s on and on. That was from an attorney not from a servicer. Don’t the servicers have boilerplate forbearance agreements or whatever?
They may but again, I’m not a fan of most boilerplate things.Every day as a note investor, we all suffer failures. Click To Tweet
My Note and Bolt comes from a story told by our friend and a great note investor, Chad Urbshott. He was talking about a property that until he had it photographed after the borrower moved out, he did not realize that there was on the window a condemned sticker. A big red sticker that said that the house was condemned. That doesn’t mean that it has to be demolished but unfortunately for him, he has to use a special procedure. It was called unfit for human habitation or whatever. It’s based in this case on there being animal feces, urine and other toxins in the house and in the forced air system of the house.
Apparently, in this particular jurisdiction, they have very specific and harsh rules about what you are allowed to do at someone trying to work on a house like that. The safety measures that have to be taken, the quality of the person that you hire, the licensing, the Hazmat suits, whatever it is and breathing apparatus. It sounded like a big deal. My tip is before you buy an asset, when you send someone to photograph particularly if you’re aware or suspect that it could be vacant, to ask them to look at the doors front, back and the windows near the doors front and back because that’s usually where signs like this are posted.
I own a mortgage and note in Pennsylvania on a rental property that has been vacant the whole time that also has an unfit for human habitation on there. I lived close enough and I went to see this property myself, I was able to see that sign and photograph it. Two good things came out of that. One is that I called the township to find out what it actually meant and what was going to be required, if there was going to be any special cleaning techniques or anything required. The other thing was when I found out that it wasn’t a big deal in the township, I sent that photograph to the note seller and used it to negotiate a much lower price on the note and it was a double win.
I’ve started implementing through preservation company and it’s like $20 or $30, that every quarter, I am having them go by in every property and take photos. They provide me a report and confirm if it’s occupied. If it’s not, check to make sure there are no signs or stickers like that on the property. That’s something I’ve implemented. Where I’ve learned this from was I acquired some contracts of deed from somebody. Instead of sending me all the collateral, they had NAA, set up a username and login for you to log in and pull the files for this so I could log on and get it. I ended up logging on and I noticed NAA sends a letter every quarter to the utility companies to see if there are any outstanding bills as well as a preservation company by to take photos as well. I’m like, “That’s actually a good idea.”
What’s the preservation company that you use?
That was very rich in detail little Note and Bolts. Thank you for that, Chris.
Thank you, everyone. One thing we would ask people to do is if you enjoy the show, leave us some feedback on iTunes and Stitcher. If you are investing in notes, we recommend you register with the GoodDeedsNoteInvesting.com as Gail and I are going to start putting out some assets for sale that are a part of our own personal portfolio. We’re going to give those out to people who are registered through the Good Deeds site, opportunity first that acquire them before we send those out to the masses.
Please continue to join us for our open mic session, where you can be on the show, ask questions and get tremendous feedback. I am proud of the little community that we are growing with our open mic. The last one was a great session and very interactive. That’s going to be our way going forward. We’re going to have people on to tell their stories and take questions from the audience. It was exciting. In order to sign up for that, please go to 7EInvestments.com/podcastwebinar. Join us there. For Chris and me, go out and do some good deeds.
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